Exit Interview: Bob Holden is nothing if not outspoken

New York City Council Member Bob Holden may be one of the last remaining centrists – if you can even call him that – in New York City politics, but he somehow became one of the most polarizing figures during his eight years in office. A founding member of the Common Sense Caucus, Holden is known for his tough-on-crime approach to public safety and love of enforcement when it comes to quality-of-life issues. He’s what many on the left call a Democrat in name only, and frequently sides with the council’s Republicans. But Holden is nothing if not outspoken: He can always be counted on to tell you exactly how he feels about an issue, even if it’s not particularly popular. As he prepares to depart the council, he reflected on his time in office with City & State. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

How are you feeling about leaving the council?

It’s kind of bittersweet. I’m looking forward to the next chapter in my life, wherever that leads me. I’m looking forward to not having to go into a specific place, or not have to get up at 5 o’clock in the morning for an interview on TV. I’m not going to miss that, but I’m going to miss the interaction with my community. They were tremendously supportive, witnessed by the fact that I stayed who I am. I stayed with my principles. I didn’t let that sway me like it sways other elected officials.

When you look back on your time on the council, how has the body changed?

This council was more divided. I think in the first council under Corey Johnson, it was more united. There was some backbiting that predated me. … If a person doesn’t like another individual – that’s one thing I learned on the first council – you can never tell, because they have poker faces. They walk around and it looks like they like that person, but they actually hate them. I didn’t experience that at my previous jobs, but it was certainly here. … It took me at least a year. I was very depressed in my first year in the council, because it was such a different job, and I couldn’t trust anyone. Somebody would say they’re going to sign on to my bill, and they wouldn’t, or somebody said they’re going to vote with me, and then they’d jump off and wouldn’t. … The second year, I started getting friendly with the speaker. The speaker liked me, Corey Johnson, we became friends. He made me Technology (Committee) chair, and I got along with him.

The second council under Adrienne Adams was totally the opposite. Adrienne Adams is not a nice person, not a fair person. Her word means nothing. I’d say if there was a worse speaker in the history of the council, I’d be surprised, because she really was too political, too overly aligned with special interests, and if you didn’t agree with her, (she) took it out on you as a council member and took it out on my constituents.

When it comes to Phil Wong’s win in District 30, do you think there was a coattail effect from Zohran Mamdani?

Of course, that goes without saying. I would say, if (the district) had all of Glendale that I had in the original election, then it probably would have been a closer race. Whether it would have made a difference, I don’t know. I really don’t. It depends, really, on who’s running as mayor sometimes, and unfortunately, Curtis Sliwa didn’t do so well in the district. I think he won one (election district) in the entire 30th Council District, so that wouldn’t bode well for any Republican. And Alicia (Vaichunas) was the victim of that, and I feel bad for her, but she doesn’t understand that. She’s not savvy enough, at least in politics, which is probably like me – I’m not savvy in politics. I really know about representing my district and my constituents more than politics, and again, that I wear that with a badge of honor. … I represented my district well. The people that I represent – Republican or Democrat or independent – they benefited from my stance on quality of life and trying to maintain it. Sometimes it’s a losing battle, but all my staff members were committed to that, and that’s why Phil is keeping the staff together, which I’m proud of.

Is Vaichunas going to stay, though?

I think so, that’s what I heard. But I haven’t spoken to her. She won’t speak to me. That’s OK – that’s the way she feels. She’s got to understand how politics works, and I don’t think she does. She took it to heart. Listen – nobody worked harder on my staff than Alicia Vaichunas, I’ll tell you that. I’ll swear in a stack of Bibles. Nobody. She gave everything. She gave her heart and soul to my district, to my office and to me. And I feel bad, but she got caught up in politics.

What have you seen as your role in the council? Do you feel good about that role?

I feel good that I just remain(ed) who I am, and I’m a principled person. My wife says I’m loyal to a fault. She tells me that all the time. … She said, sometimes you won’t pivot, only because you gave your word or that you believe you’re right. When you believe you’re right, you won’t ever let go, even though it could mean that you’re going to get blacklisted in the council, and that’s what happened.

I remember the How Many Stops (Act), which was last year, the speaker’s chief of staff – I went in to meet with Jeremy John, and he said, “How Many Stops is personal to the speaker.” … I knew we were going to probably lose the vote, but I said, I can’t. How Many Stops is going to be detrimental to public safety, and I’m not going to compromise the vote, even though we’re going to lose, but I think we stand and fight and we see what happens. And I did the right thing, but it cost me any bills being passed. And also, the Ryder’s Law, too. (Adams) blamed me, because on social media, the animal rights people were attacking her. … So she calls me, yelling at me, I said, “That kind of comes with being a speaker, doesn’t it?” … Do what you want to me, but I’m not going to change my stance on Ryder’s Law. I’m going to support it, and I’ll do that to my grave.

When it comes to your sort of dissenting role in the council, some people say Charles Barron was the one to do it before you. Who do you see taking up that mantle?

It’s funny – I had a talk with Phil. I said, “You could be the kind of voice that I was, or at least tried to be. But I think you could even do it better, because you will pick your spot.” Because you’ve got to balance the district, sometimes you have got to play a little bit more politically (and) think about, “Is this important to comment on?” Because people would come to me and say, “Look, this bill is going to pass anyway. Why should you vote ’no’ and get in hot water with the speaker?” And I said, “I did that.” I tried that once or twice under Corey Johnson. Because they came to me and said, “Look, this is going to pass anyway. Why don’t you vote with it?” And they said, “We’ll pass one of your bills.” And I weighed it, and I said, “OK, if I can get this bill passed – because it would make the city better – and this other thing is not going to affect my district so much, but I still don’t believe in it, should I compromise?” And I actually did. And I didn’t feel good, I felt dirty. … The bill was a good bill, and it actually made the quality of life in the city better. But I still didn’t feel good about it. I still don’t. So I never did it again.

When you think about your greatest achievements in the council, what stands out? 

I think my office was the hardest-working and … we would save hundreds of thousands of dollars to our constituents who were either fined or unfairly would not get benefits, were owed money or were scammed out of money. We actually recovered money for our constituents, and we actually kept our neighborhood good. You could still walk around and feel safe. Granted, there’s a bit more crime than when I took office, but that’s throughout the entire city. That’s because of bail reform. That’s because of Raise the Age … so it was crime everywhere, but in this district, if there was music playing, we would get the cops chasing (people) keeping up people at night. If there was a lot of quality-of-life (issues), cars parking everywhere illegally, we went after them and we held the precinct committee accountable. I passed a bill under Corey Johnson that said the cops could actually tow vehicles immediately, rather than waiting. … I had a bill passed under Corey Johnson that (banned) obscuring license plates. … I’m not saying that I’m such a great bill writer or proposer, but … I knew what we needed to maintain (a good) quality of life. I didn’t have to do a participatory budget and try to give out $1 million to a group to find out what’s important: I knew what was important in my district.

Do you have any regrets about your time on the council? 

I wish I didn’t vote for Adrienne Adams as speaker. I wish I held my ground. It wouldn’t have mattered, though. … What I don’t like is that – and what I found out very early – is that many of the council members are not who they say they are.

I regret, probably, that I didn’t run for office earlier in life, because it’s a physically demanding job – much different than being a college professor. … If I ran for office (earlier in life), it probably wouldn’t have gotten anywhere, but I did have a resume that nobody could match. … I regret that I couldn’t have adjusted, at least the first year, to the council as quickly. But it may be because I’m older, it takes a little longer. Then once I adapted and I felt really comfortable, it was almost like I became blacklisted by the speaker. I felt that I was sharper than ever. And I knew politics now. I figured it out. And then it’s my last term. It’s like, oh, all right, I think I’m at my best now, and I’m going to be leaving office – that’s kind of a regret.

You say you feel you’re at your best now – when we’ve spoken about this previously, you’ve been very clear that you intend to retire. But I’m wondering if that’s still the case?

At first, it was – as I said, I just want to sit on the beach and read. I want to travel. … But now, it’s funny, as I get closer to the end of my role as an elected official, I’m saying I’m not going to rule out running for office again, or at least taking something in government. I can’t rule it out. … I feel I changed my mind. It’s like, yeah, maybe I do have something still to offer. … I’m just going to play it by ear. I’ll see. Something might come my way or not.

But you wouldn’t rule out running for office again? 

Never. No – you can’t say “never.” You don’t know. I didn’t know I’d ever be in this job! I never thought I would be a council member, ever. I didn’t even think I’d win. … Life takes turns. … I don’t know if I’ll run for office (again) because I hate the idea of a campaign. It’s tough. But I kind of like just having something to say – about government.